Spreading the Way - Revision history

Vsabo: /* Conclusion */

2026-09-09T20:51:41Z

Conclusion

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	But each body will have to take small careful steps to achieve the goal - there is no single action that is going to convert any group. Often the prognosticators won't even be aware that something will help - few of the benefits of working with the Sand Fishers that were analysed by the civil service revealed that they would bring the sept closer to the Way, but that happened none-the-less. That process is far from complete, but the movement was incremental and often incidental to other purposes. Often it's impossible to know that any progress is being made at all, until things suddenly change. There may be no signs that a group are engaging with the Way or enamoured of it - not until it happens.		But each body will have to take small careful steps to achieve the goal - there is no single action that is going to convert any group. Often the prognosticators won't even be aware that something will help - few of the benefits of working with the Sand Fishers that were analysed by the civil service revealed that they would bring the sept closer to the Way, but that happened none-the-less. That process is far from complete, but the movement was incremental and often incidental to other purposes. Often it's impossible to know that any progress is being made at all, until things suddenly change. There may be no signs that a group are engaging with the Way or enamoured of it - not until it happens.

	The Empire can use appraisal as a tool to help spread the Way, but to do so any future appraisal would need to focus on a specific group and provide simple goals that could be met. ~~Appraise~~ a way to spread the Way to the world won't produce useful answers, ~~Appraise~~ how to convince Skoura to let the Empire build a church of the Way in their lands would.		The Empire can use appraisal as a tool to help spread the Way, but to do so any future appraisal would need to focus on a specific group and provide simple goals that could be met. Appraising a way to spread the Way to the world won't produce useful answers, appraising how to convince Skoura to let the Empire build a church of the Way in their lands would.

	In the end though, the best approach is likely one that enables the people the Empire want to convert to embody the Virtues. Take a lesson from the tenets of Loyalty suggests Naomi.		In the end though, the best approach is likely one that enables the people the Empire want to convert to embody the Virtues. Take a lesson from the tenets of Loyalty suggests Naomi.

Vsabo: /* Culture Led */

2026-09-09T20:48:03Z

Culture Led

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	The Apulian Orcs are a fine example of how this worked in practice. They had some significant theological differences with the Imperial Way - they embraced the Seven Virtues - just not the same seven Virtues as the Empire. When faced with this contradiction, their desire to become part of the Empire quickly saw them abandon their religious convictions. Political advancement in the Empire was more than enough to persuade them of the importance of embracing the Virtues.		The Apulian Orcs are a fine example of how this worked in practice. They had some significant theological differences with the Imperial Way - they embraced the Seven Virtues - just not the same seven Virtues as the Empire. When faced with this contradiction, their desire to become part of the Empire quickly saw them abandon their religious convictions. Political advancement in the Empire was more than enough to persuade them of the importance of embracing the Virtues.

	Cynics might argue that this form of conversion lacks conviction - that it demeans the Way to reduce it to such material concerns. Naomi disagrees, arguing that the first job of any missionary is to get a person to accept new religious ideas - to get them to give up their old beliefs in favour of the new. It's true that some former Grendel may wear their religious beliefs like a loose cloak, but ''they still hold them''. It's the job of other priests to shore up their Virtue and urge them to embrace their new beliefs. There's no reason why the next generation of League Orcs shouldn't grow up to be bishops as far as Naomi s concerned.		Cynics might argue that this form of conversion lacks conviction - that it demeans the Way to reduce it to such material concerns. Naomi disagrees, arguing that the first job of any missionary is to get a person to accept new religious ideas - to get them to give up their old beliefs in favour of the new. It's true that some former Grendel may wear their religious beliefs like a loose cloak, but ''they still hold them''. It's the job of other priests to shore up their Virtue and urge them to embrace their new beliefs. There's no reason why the next generation of League Orcs shouldn't grow up to be bishops as far as Naomi is concerned.

	This kind of approach requires the Empire to have a positive relationship with the group. Arguably any approach benefits from that, but here it is essential. The group don't have to ''like'' the Empire, but they do have to admire them, they have to want to emulate them, otherwise it cannot succeed. Championing this approach can involve methods to share cultural and political benefits with a group. The Empire elected not to give Imperial Lore to the Sand Fishers - that was clearly the Vigilant decision. The risk of it falling in to the hands of the Druj was high. But there's no doubt that if the Empire had shared Imperial Lore with the sept then it would have inevitably brought them even further into Imperial life. It would have shown them the advantages of embracing the Empire - and by extension embracing the Way.		This kind of approach requires the Empire to have a positive relationship with the group. Arguably any approach benefits from that, but here it is essential. The group don't have to ''like'' the Empire, but they do have to admire them, they have to want to emulate them, otherwise it cannot succeed. Championing this approach can involve methods to share cultural and political benefits with a group. The Empire elected not to give Imperial Lore to the Sand Fishers - that was clearly the Vigilant decision. The risk of it falling in to the hands of the Druj was high. But there's no doubt that if the Empire had shared Imperial Lore with the sept then it would have inevitably brought them even further into Imperial life. It would have shown them the advantages of embracing the Empire - and by extension embracing the Way.

Vsabo: /* Doctrine Led */

2026-09-09T20:45:10Z

Doctrine Led

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	Demanding a group follow the [[The Doctrines of the Faith\|Doctrines of the Way]] is usually a sure-fire way to get them to reject the faith. Independent groups with no reason to embrace the Way are unlikely to react positively to the imposition of a catechism and a set of rules. This is particularly true for groups with little in the way of any organised religion and no unified religious beliefs. A better approach can be to send scholars and philosophers to debate the Way and to demonstrate why the way of life laid out by the Doctrines is superior. This approach is what the [[Highguard\|Highborn]] missionaries employed in [[Urizen]] centuries ago.		Demanding a group follow the [[The Doctrines of the Faith\|Doctrines of the Way]] is usually a sure-fire way to get them to reject the faith. Independent groups with no reason to embrace the Way are unlikely to react positively to the imposition of a catechism and a set of rules. This is particularly true for groups with little in the way of any organised religion and no unified religious beliefs. A better approach can be to send scholars and philosophers to debate the Way and to demonstrate why the way of life laid out by the Doctrines is superior. This approach is what the [[Highguard\|Highborn]] missionaries employed in [[Urizen]] centuries ago.

	A more formal, rules-based approach, might be effective when dealing with a group that already has an organised religion. The Jotun, for example, clearly have a coherent set of religious beliefs; they have churches, and worship of their ancestors is an integral part of their lives. They treat their priests, their ghodi, with enormous respect. The idea of religious beliefs and religious laws is normal to them. It would be incredibly difficult to convince the Jotun to embrace the Way and incredibly dangerous, but the most effective way to attempt it would be a doctrine-led approach, especially if the Doctrines of the Way presented an encompassing vision of ~~Orc~~ life.		A more formal, rules-based approach, might be effective when dealing with a group that already has an organised religion. The Jotun, for example, clearly have a coherent set of religious beliefs; they have churches, and worship of their ancestors is an integral part of their lives. They treat their priests, their ghodi, with enormous respect. The idea of religious beliefs and religious laws is normal to them. It would be incredibly difficult to convince the Jotun to embrace the Way and incredibly dangerous, but the most effective way to attempt it would be a doctrine-led approach, especially if the Doctrines of the Way presented an encompassing vision of orc life.

	The Suranni are the prime example of a nation where a doctrine-led approach would have the best chance of success. Converting the Iron Confederacy would be incredibly difficult - they are very standoffish with the Empire, but they loathe the Imperial religion. It's not that a doctrine-led approach would be easy - rather, the approach would be easier than other options. They have an established priest class, with a population used to taking instruction from their priests. If those priests could be supplanted, replaced or removed, then they would be more receptive to a doctrine-led approach - certainly more than an aura-led approach, which they would be bound to denounce as the work of Dumon.		The Suranni are the prime example of a nation where a doctrine-led approach would have the best chance of success. Converting the Iron Confederacy would be incredibly difficult - they are very standoffish with the Empire, but they loathe the Imperial religion. It's not that a doctrine-led approach would be easy - rather, the approach would be easier than other options. They have an established priest class, with a population used to taking instruction from their priests. If those priests could be supplanted, replaced or removed, then they would be more receptive to a doctrine-led approach - certainly more than an aura-led approach, which they would be bound to denounce as the work of Dumon.

Vsabo: /* Overview */

2026-09-09T20:36:55Z

Overview

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	During the Summer Solstice, '''Rane Shardbearer''', [[Kallavesa\|Senator for Kallavesa]], proposed a [[388YE_Summer_Solstice_Senate_sessions#Appraise_Spreading_Way_to_Non-Wayist_Cultures\|motion]] to appraise how non-Wayist cultures and communities residing within the Empire can be brought into the [[The Way\|Way of Virtue]]. They asked for Lisane de Terresford to conduct the appraisal, but Lisane remains [[Satraps of the Abyss\|engaged]] in Sumaah until the start of the Winter Solstice 388YE, so Gerard la Salle selected ''Naomi of Virtue's Rest'' as lead prognosticator on this task.		During the Summer Solstice, '''Rane Shardbearer''', [[Kallavesa\|Senator for Kallavesa]], proposed a [[388YE_Summer_Solstice_Senate_sessions#Appraise_Spreading_Way_to_Non-Wayist_Cultures\|motion]] to appraise how non-Wayist cultures and communities residing within the Empire can be brought into the [[The Way\|Way of Virtue]]. They asked for Lisane de Terresford to conduct the appraisal, but Lisane remains [[Satraps of the Abyss\|engaged]] in Sumaah until the start of the Winter Solstice 388YE, so Gerard la Salle selected ''Naomi of Virtue's Rest'' as lead prognosticator on this task.

	Naomi's response is a little more expansive and a lot less ''detailed'' than usual. Her answer might best be summed up as "It depends". Fortunately, for Gerard's temper and Naomi's career prospects, she puts a ''little'' more meat on the bone than that...		Naomi's response is a little more expansive and a lot less ''detailed'' than usual. Her answer might best be summed up as "It depends". Fortunately for Gerard's temper and Naomi's career prospects, she puts a ''little'' more meat on the bone than that...

	==Caveats==		==Caveats==

Novemberalice at 16:01, 9 September 2026

2026-09-09T16:01:43Z

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	"There's nothing the Empire can commission I see. Usually we have some suggestions for them?" her boss replied, turning the short report over as if trying to find where she might have hidden those details.		"There's nothing the Empire can commission I see. Usually we have some suggestions for them?" her boss replied, turning the short report over as if trying to find where she might have hidden those details.

	"It's full of suggestions!" She grinned. It was a little unprofessional, but really. They'd wanted Lisane for this and maybe they would have done better with her, but ~~Noami~~ didn't think so. She was proud of her work, this one had not been easy.		"It's full of suggestions!" She grinned. It was a little unprofessional, but really. They'd wanted Lisane for this and maybe they would have done better with her, but Naomi didn't think so. She was proud of her work, this one had not been easy.

	"Quite. It's a lot of... policy..." The Empire's most senior accountant said that word like it was painful to him. "But there's no actual motions? Nothing the Conclave can do? Surely there must be a mandate or two?"		"Quite. It's a lot of... policy..." The Empire's most senior accountant said that word like it was painful to him. "But there's no actual motions? Nothing the Conclave can do? Surely there must be a mandate or two?"

Matt at 15:50, 9 September 2026

2026-09-09T15:50:33Z

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	"You thought you'd finish by quoting the tenets?" said Gerard with a tone that suggested that he did not favour this approach in the slightest.		"You thought you'd finish by quoting the tenets?" said Gerard with a tone that suggested that he did not favour this approach in the slightest.

	"I did. I thought it appropriate given the subject matter. It cuts right to the heart of the matter I think." Naomi beamed at her boss. It was never wise to show any weakness in front of the auditor, but in truth she was pleased with the appraisal. She doubted anyone else would be, but that was their problem.		"It's guidance. And I did. I thought it appropriate given the subject matter. It cuts right to the heart of the matter I think." Naomi beamed at her boss. It was never wise to show any weakness in front of the auditor, but in truth she was pleased with the appraisal. She doubted anyone else would be, but that was their problem.

	"There's nothing the Empire can commission I see. Usually we have some suggestions for them?" her boss replied, turning the short report over as if trying to find where she might have hidden those details.		"There's nothing the Empire can commission I see. Usually we have some suggestions for them?" her boss replied, turning the short report over as if trying to find where she might have hidden those details.
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	In the end though, the best approach is likely one that enables the people the Empire want to convert to embody the Virtues. Take a lesson from the tenets of Loyalty suggests Naomi.		In the end though, the best approach is likely one that enables the people the Empire want to convert to embody the Virtues. Take a lesson from the tenets of Loyalty suggests Naomi.

	<quote by="~~Tenets~~ of Loyalty">The Virtuous build up their fellows; they do not tear them down.</quote>		<quote by="Guidance of Loyalty">The Virtuous build up their fellows; they do not tear them down.</quote>

	The best way to spread the Virtues is to be Virtuous - by finding ways to build up their fellows, not tear them down.		The best way to spread the Virtues is to be Virtuous - by finding ways to build up their fellows, not tear them down.

GuiltyConscience: /* Doctrine Led */

2026-09-09T07:29:45Z

Doctrine Led

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:29, 9 September 2026
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	A more formal, rules-based approach, might be effective when dealing with a group that already has an organised religion. The Jotun, for example, clearly have a coherent set of religious beliefs; they have churches, and worship of their ancestors is an integral part of their lives. They treat their priests, their ghodi, with enormous respect. The idea of religious beliefs and religious laws is normal to them. It would be incredibly difficult to convince the Jotun to embrace the Way and incredibly dangerous, but the most effective way to attempt it would be a doctrine-led approach, especially if the Doctrines of the Way presented an encompassing vision of Orc life.		A more formal, rules-based approach, might be effective when dealing with a group that already has an organised religion. The Jotun, for example, clearly have a coherent set of religious beliefs; they have churches, and worship of their ancestors is an integral part of their lives. They treat their priests, their ghodi, with enormous respect. The idea of religious beliefs and religious laws is normal to them. It would be incredibly difficult to convince the Jotun to embrace the Way and incredibly dangerous, but the most effective way to attempt it would be a doctrine-led approach, especially if the Doctrines of the Way presented an encompassing vision of Orc life.

	The ~~Surrani~~ are the prime example of a nation where a doctrine-led approach would have the best chance of success. Converting the Iron Confederacy would be incredibly difficult - they are very standoffish with the Empire, but they loathe the Imperial religion. It's not that a doctrine-led approach would be easy - rather, the approach would be easier than other options. They have an established priest class, with a population used to taking instruction from their priests. If those priests could be supplanted, replaced or removed, then they would be more receptive to a doctrine-led approach - certainly more than an aura-led approach, which they would be bound to denounce as the work of Dumon.		The Suranni are the prime example of a nation where a doctrine-led approach would have the best chance of success. Converting the Iron Confederacy would be incredibly difficult - they are very standoffish with the Empire, but they loathe the Imperial religion. It's not that a doctrine-led approach would be easy - rather, the approach would be easier than other options. They have an established priest class, with a population used to taking instruction from their priests. If those priests could be supplanted, replaced or removed, then they would be more receptive to a doctrine-led approach - certainly more than an aura-led approach, which they would be bound to denounce as the work of Dumon.

	Another situation where a doctrine-led approach might work is where a group has been conquered. If they accept their defeat, they accept that they have been beaten, by which Naomi means they are no longer trying to rebel or fight back, then it becomes much easier to implement a doctrine led approach. It might sound callous to spread the way by force of arms, the Doctrines can be used to show people that everyone in the Empire is equal in the eyes of the Way - that the same Doctrines apply to everyone. When used with tact, an approach that invites people to embrace the doctrines will be more successful than an approach which tries to convince them of what to do by pushing the effects of auras on them.		Another situation where a doctrine-led approach might work is where a group has been conquered. If they accept their defeat, they accept that they have been beaten, by which Naomi means they are no longer trying to rebel or fight back, then it becomes much easier to implement a doctrine led approach. It might sound callous to spread the way by force of arms, the Doctrines can be used to show people that everyone in the Empire is equal in the eyes of the Way - that the same Doctrines apply to everyone. When used with tact, an approach that invites people to embrace the doctrines will be more successful than an approach which tries to convince them of what to do by pushing the effects of auras on them.

GuiltyConscience: /* Caveats */

2026-09-09T07:25:25Z

Caveats

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	The first is that prognosticating matters of faith is always fraught with difficulty and prone to error. If Naomi wants to calculate the ''exact'' amount of white granite needed to build a fortification on a mountain pass in Urizen, there are Day rituals that can provide those answers. If she wants to understand how building a monument to the memory of a fallen Wintermark hero will affect recruitment in a territory, there's a Night ritual for that. But the soul defies divination; it is difficult even to find the right question to ask, and there is almost never a useful answer. Any time faith becomes a factor, prognostication becomes harder. That is not to say that it is impossible - but harder.		The first is that prognosticating matters of faith is always fraught with difficulty and prone to error. If Naomi wants to calculate the ''exact'' amount of white granite needed to build a fortification on a mountain pass in Urizen, there are Day rituals that can provide those answers. If she wants to understand how building a monument to the memory of a fallen Wintermark hero will affect recruitment in a territory, there's a Night ritual for that. But the soul defies divination; it is difficult even to find the right question to ask, and there is almost never a useful answer. Any time faith becomes a factor, prognostication becomes harder. That is not to say that it is impossible - but harder.

	Naomi's solution is to recommend breaking things down into small, simple steps. She is confident she won't be able to appraise "how to convince the Sand Fishers to embrace the Way". She might be able to come up with some recommendations, but she would not be certain of their success. But she can appraise "How to encourage the Sand Fishers to engage with priests of the Way" - that is a much easier thing to appraise. And maybe, hopefully, perhaps, once done, it might eventually lead towards the goal of getting the Sand Fishers to embrace the Imperial religion. Of course, it's more than likely to reveal theological problems that are in the way, but arguably that's useful information to. The point is that the Senate would be best advised to break the goal into small parts and try to take it slowly. In this respect, a more circumspect appraisal will give more certain answers.		Naomi's solution is to recommend breaking things down into small, simple steps. She is confident she won't be able to appraise "how to convince the Sand Fishers to embrace the Way". She might be able to come up with some recommendations, but she would not be certain of their success. But she can appraise "How to encourage the Sand Fishers to engage with priests of the Way" - that is a much easier thing to appraise. And maybe, hopefully, perhaps, once done, it might eventually lead towards the goal of getting the Sand Fishers to embrace the Imperial religion. Of course, it's more than likely to reveal theological problems that are in the way, but arguably that's useful information too. The point is that the Senate would be best advised to break the goal into small parts and try to take it slowly. In this respect, a more circumspect appraisal will give more certain answers.

	The second key point is that there will ''never'' be a one-size-fits-all solution. There is no commission that the Empire can build which will make the Sand Fishers embrace the Way. And even if there were, you can guarantee that whatever it was, would be completely useless for convincing the Dreamers of the Dark Forest to embrace the Way. If there is a chance of getting the Dreamers to embrace the Imperial faith, whatever the answer is, it won't be any use at all when applied to Faraden merchants.		The second key point is that there will ''never'' be a one-size-fits-all solution. There is no commission that the Empire can build which will make the Sand Fishers embrace the Way. And even if there were, you can guarantee that whatever it was would be completely useless for convincing the Dreamers of the Dark Forest to embrace the Way. If there is a chance of getting the Dreamers to embrace the Imperial faith, whatever the answer is, it won't be any use at all when applied to Faraden merchants.

	Every group that the Empire might want to convert, to proselytise, is different. Every problem of this kind is unique - every group is an infinitely complex mélange of history, beliefs, attitudes, assumptions, experiences. Geography, economics, politics - all of these factors can be important for matters of faith. A [[fortification]] built in [[Hahnmark]] works just as well as a fortification built in [[Redoubt]]. That will never be true here - every group the Empire tries to approach will be different - every solution will need to reflect that.		Every group that the Empire might want to convert, to proselytise, is different. Every problem of this kind is unique - every group is an infinitely complex mélange of history, beliefs, attitudes, assumptions, experiences. Geography, economics, politics - all of these factors can be important for matters of faith. A [[fortification]] built in [[Hahnmark]] works just as well as a fortification built in [[Redoubt]]. That will never be true here - every group the Empire tries to approach will be different - every solution will need to reflect that.

GuiltyConscience at 07:21, 9 September 2026

2026-09-09T07:21:13Z

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	"I did. I thought it appropriate given the subject matter. It cuts right to the heart of the matter I think." Naomi beamed at her boss. It was never wise to show any weakness in front of the auditor, but in truth she was pleased with the appraisal. She doubted anyone else would be, but that was their problem.		"I did. I thought it appropriate given the subject matter. It cuts right to the heart of the matter I think." Naomi beamed at her boss. It was never wise to show any weakness in front of the auditor, but in truth she was pleased with the appraisal. She doubted anyone else would be, but that was their problem.

	"There's nothing the Empire can commission I see. Usually we have some suggestions for them?" he boss replied, turning the short report over as if trying to find where she might have hidden those details.		"There's nothing the Empire can commission I see. Usually we have some suggestions for them?" her boss replied, turning the short report over as if trying to find where she might have hidden those details.

	"It's full of suggestions!" She grinned. It was a little unprofessional, but really. They'd wanted Lisane for this and maybe they would have done better with her, but Noami didn't think so. She was proud of her work, this one had not been easy.		"It's full of suggestions!" She grinned. It was a little unprofessional, but really. They'd wanted Lisane for this and maybe they would have done better with her, but Noami didn't think so. She was proud of her work, this one had not been easy.

Kirkbride at 02:33, 9 September 2026

2026-09-09T02:33:42Z

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	"On the contrary! There's everything they can do... I just haven't narrowed it down."		"On the contrary! There's everything they can do... I just haven't narrowed it down."
	</ic>		</ic>
	~~<!--~~<div style="float:left; width: 350px;">		<div style="float:left; width: 350px;">
	{{CaptionedImage\|file=~~Rane5768~~.jpg\|caption=~~'''Rane Shardbearer''', Senator for Kallavesa~~\|align=left\|width=500}}		{{CaptionedImage\|file=Labyrinth.jpg\|caption=The Labyrinth has long been a symbol of [[The Way\|the Way of Virtue]]\|align=left\|width=500}}
	</div~~>--~~>		</div>
	==Overview==		==Overview==
	During the Summer Solstice, '''Rane Shardbearer''', [[Kallavesa\|Senator for Kallavesa]], proposed a [[388YE_Summer_Solstice_Senate_sessions#Appraise_Spreading_Way_to_Non-Wayist_Cultures\|motion]] to appraise how non-Wayist cultures and communities residing within the Empire can be brought into the [[The Way\|Way of Virtue]]. They asked for Lisane de Terresford to conduct the appraisal, but Lisane remains [[Satraps of the Abyss\|engaged]] in Sumaah until the start of the Winter Solstice 388YE, so Gerard la Salle selected ''Naomi of Virtue's Rest'' as lead prognosticator on this task.		During the Summer Solstice, '''Rane Shardbearer''', [[Kallavesa\|Senator for Kallavesa]], proposed a [[388YE_Summer_Solstice_Senate_sessions#Appraise_Spreading_Way_to_Non-Wayist_Cultures\|motion]] to appraise how non-Wayist cultures and communities residing within the Empire can be brought into the [[The Way\|Way of Virtue]]. They asked for Lisane de Terresford to conduct the appraisal, but Lisane remains [[Satraps of the Abyss\|engaged]] in Sumaah until the start of the Winter Solstice 388YE, so Gerard la Salle selected ''Naomi of Virtue's Rest'' as lead prognosticator on this task.

	Naomi's response is a little more expansive and a lot less ''detailed'' than usual. Her answer might best be summed up as "It depends". Fortunately, for Gerard's temper and Naomi's career prospects, she puts a ''little'' more meat on the bone than that...		Naomi's response is a little more expansive and a lot less ''detailed'' than usual. Her answer might best be summed up as "It depends". Fortunately, for Gerard's temper and Naomi's career prospects, she puts a ''little'' more meat on the bone than that...
	~~<div style="float:right; width: 300px; clear: right;">[[file:Labyrinth.jpg]]</div>~~
	==Caveats==		==Caveats==
	* '''Naomi starts her appraisal with three important caveats'''		* '''Naomi starts her appraisal with three important caveats'''